Kelly Reichardt: THE MASTERMIND behind some of the best movies of the century

The NYTimes just named Kelly Reichardt's THE MASTERMIND one of the top 10 films of 2025... and in this episode she looks back on the career that led up to it. From her debut RIVERS OF GRASS to the Oscar-nominated MEEK'S CUTOFF and beyond, it’s a trip through the indie wilds with one of America's best filmmakers — taped before a live audience at MUBIFest Berlin.

THE MASTERMIND is now streaming exclusively on MUBI almost globally. 

To stream more films of Kelly Reichardt, check out the American Outsider: The Films of Kelly Reichardt collection. Availability of films varies depending on your country.

Pre-order your copy of The Mastermind book, featuring photographs, essays, and reflections on the making of Kelly Reichardt’s film.

To stream some of the films we've covered on the podcast, check out the collection Featured on the MUBI Podcast. Availability of films varies depending on your country.

MUBI is a global streaming service, production company and film distributor dedicated to elevating great cinema. MUBI makes, acquires, curates, and champions extraordinary films, connecting them to audiences all over the world. A place to discover ambitious new films and singular voices, from iconic directors to emerging auteurs. Each carefully chosen by MUBI’s curators.

Transcript

0:00

Heads up, this episode includes adult language and spoilers. You know, I remember this is how old I am. I remember waiting for the first McDonalds to be built, and it was like this idea of fast food was coming and there was all this excitement and we went on the night it opens, we went through a drive-through and we got hamburgers and they were like the greatest thing in the world. And then immediately, like a Subway appeared across the street and then it became four. And even as a kid, I remember thinking like, "Maybe this isn't good." That is filmmaker Kelly Reichardt. And after that childhood epiphany, she went on to make celebrated movies full of characters trying to drop out of a society they can sense maybe isn't good. The latest example is called <i>The Mastermind</i>, about a guy in 1970 Massachusetts, played by Josh O'Connor, who's got a wife, two sons and none of the direction of his peers. As his dad never tires of telling him.<i>I saw Kipp's father today. He said Kipp has projects all over town.</i><i>He spends all his time balancing books, scheduling on the phone.</i><i>- Those are the tasks of the top man.- It's an idiotic way to spend your time.</i> So he comes up with what feels to him like a better way

to spend his time: 1:22

plotting an art heist.<i>Trust me, given it a lot of thought.</i> I'm Rico Gagliano. Welcome back to the MUBI Podcast. MUBI's the global film company that champions great cinema. On this show, we tell you the stories behind great cinema. We are in the middle of a season about food on film, but we're taking a break from that to drop in this very, very special episode. It's my interview with Kelly Reichardt. Most critics will tell you she's one of the greatest living American filmmakers, and you're going to hear her tell me about her whole career.

From the anger that motivates her: 1:56

Society in movies are constantly telling us that this thing I'm talking about is a winning situation for everyone, and it's not a winning situation. It's a fuckin' losing situation. To the treacherous shoot for her Oscar nominated <i>Meek's Cutoff</i>, starring Michelle Williams. We pushed everyone too far in that film, and some people really went crazy in the desert. And I was like, you know, I'll just do whatever I want to do because clearly I'm never making another movie. We also get into her movies <i>Old Joy</i> and of course, <i>The Mastermind</i>, which <i>The New York Times</i> just named one of the top ten movies of the year and which is streaming right now on MUBI. It is funny and gripping and totally about modern America, despite being set in the 70s. I spoke to Kelly in October before a live audience at MUBI Fest in Berlin, Germany. Please welcome Kelly Reichardt. We started off talking about her childhood, which she says didn't exactly prime her for a career in cinema. I don't have a movie that got me into movie making per se. Sorry, I'm from Florida and I didn't grow up around art at all. But I do remember sitting in my grandparents house behind the TV line, which was like a piece of masking tape on the carpet and seeing <i>Whatever Happened to Baby Jane</i>. And there's a beach scene in that, and it's a black and white film. And I remember that seeing the beach scene in black and white was probably like the first impression, like, that film made on me, that someone was actually doing something, that you could make the beach look so different by putting it in black and white.- How old were you at that point?- I don't remember how old I was, but, you know, young enough that I was in my grandmother's nightgown, watching, with a Shirley Temple, watching <i>Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?</i> So, young.- Fancy.- Yeah. I like how you're like, "I'm from Florida, so I have no art in my life." It's like there's art in Florida! I grew up in North Miami in Broward County in a law enforcement family. And my dad did listen to jazz, so there was that. But it was-- put it this way my sister, who I love, moved into a house in her adult life, not where she lives now. And the art on the wall is what the people left there before she moved in. So we're not like, totally, it's not an art family, I would say. Although that is fascinating because my next questions are about your first film, <i>River of Grass</i>. I didn't know any of what you just told me, and it's all in <i>River of Grass</i>. I mean, there is a cop...- Who loves jazz.- Oh, yeah, yeah. Actually, I have a clip of <i>River of Grass</i>, believe it or not, to play. This is four minutes into the movie, and I feel like there's a lot about your oeuvre that is there right away. It's a scene that starts with a shot of the Florida Everglades, tall grasses swaying by a stream. Then shots of two people fishing in the stream. And then a sudden swish pan... to a four lane highway just a few feet away. That's when we hear the main character in a voiceover, as we see views from the car of more roads and construction sites and highway medians.<i>People used to think this area was uninhabitable,</i><i>but more and more it's becoming civilized.</i><i>And they say that within two years there will be a shopping center every 15 miles.</i> Right away, it's civility versus nature. Shots of nature, and then a swift pan to civility barreling its way in the form of a road through nature. Does that come from you living in Florida? Was that happening as you were growing up? Well, it was, we actually when my parents got divorced, my mom moved to the Everglades. It was a swamp with a house, and horrible. But the last time I went there, I tried to find that house and I never got to any sense of the Everglades. I drove and drove and drove and it was just housing development after housing development, there was-- you would never have known it was a swamp.- It was gone.- It was gone. Yeah. So I did have a feeling, you know, maybe this isn't a good thing for whatever reason. Well, that's going to be my next question is when you make this movie, which is 94, is that? Yeah, we I think I made it in 93 and it came out in 94.- Did you--- Came out early. Yeah. To what extent did you know this is going to be part of my project? This is something I'm going to explore a lot in movies.- That theme.- Who knows what I was thinking. I had a deep desire to get out of Florida and had an idea that things were happening elsewhere. I'm a great complainer and I like to-- So it's probably like I just thought of it as complaining about what I saw as crap, or whatever, you know? But it wasn't like an agenda of some sort. I would say. So really, it was just like, this is lame. So I'm going to talk about it basically. Yeah. Or it's not just lame, it's bad. You know, it's-- We used to drive from Miami to Alta Montana when I was a kid, and we would take these camping trips. I can remember being on the highway and, like, wild horses, like running near us and stuff like that and being at the local gas station. And I've kept those drives going up till just after my dog died. And, I mean, it's just endless sprawl from corner to corner of the country, and you just have this feeling of like a loss, you know, and just how completely capitalism swallowed individual businesses or made us somehow the population seems okay with like, vacationing near an eight lane highway and going to Applebee's restaurant, like a chain store, or having one radio station that goes used to like wait and tune in the radio station in the state you got to, and y'know and that was like an exciting thing to find the local radio station. Which doesn't exist anymore. For that matter you used to have to stop all the time and wash the bugs off your windshield, and insects don't exist anymore. You could drive cross-country without ever cleaning your windshield now. Your car used to be covered in bugs. So it's just like, I have a feeling of like, my team losing and something being swallowed up that somehow, like, I guess enough of the country or the world in lots of places is okay with, or just doesn't...- It takes it like this is what we get.- Like it might be imposed on them. Yes. It's mediocrity to the extreme and even below mediocrity. And so anyway, now I'm complaining. See what I said? I'm a great complainer. Well, this actually maybe leads me to the kind of characters you put at the fore of your movies. Who, it's no big secret, I think that a lot of your films and you've talked about this, these are loners, they're outsiders, they're people who don't fit into society. I have a quote here from a magazine called <i>Indie Film Hustle</i>. They said you're "more interested in glimpses of" what you describe"as people passing through drifters, loners and outcasts"relegated to the margins of society,"trapped in a restless search for a better life." And I've heard you also call your characters"characters who don't have a safety net." But I will say, like all respect to you and to <i>Indie Film Hustle</i>, I think it's even more than that. They not only don't have a safety net, a lot of, especially your male characters, reject safety nets when they're offered to them. It's almost like by design they want to be outsiders, and I'm wondering where that archetype came from. It's not like society imposed it on them. Society did impose it on-- Society in movies are constantly telling us that this thing I'm talking about is a winning situation for everyone. And it's not a winning situation. It's a fucking losing situation. For a lot of people, especially if you're interested in beauty. You know, there's less individualism than ever. I mean, I guess I'm depicting loners and people that fall outside the system, which for a time in America was embraced. Right? Isn't like the whole idea of America is supposed to be like, you're going to be the individual. And I've just been reading, weirdly, Benjamin Franklin's autobiography, I mean, what an idiosyncratic person. But that is not really what is held in high esteem. I mean, I had dinner the other night with some 20 year olds, my friend's kids, and we were trying to explain to them that there was a time when, like, if you had a trust fund or you had any money, you tried to hide it and it was just so uncool to have money. And how when I was coming up, we didn't think of making films like they would support us. It was never going to give us a lifestyle, and these kids were just completely like,"What are you talking about?" Like they said, everyone they know, they all want to make money. And the idea of selling out was like completely off their radar. They were eye rolling to us, just like, "What are you talking about?" I feel what you're saying. In defense of youth, though, it's like it's increasingly hard to do anything without large amounts of money. Completely. I'm not laying it at their doorstep at all. I'm just saying that somebody's done something very bad. No, I don't mean to lay it at the feet of the youth, like this is what we gave them. So I am drawn to people that recognize that it's not a system that they want to be part of, and want to exist outside of it, or can't be a part, can't get a toehold in. There was an interview that I saw with you where you said that you like having a project because it keeps you from having to deal with all the stuff you have to deal with when you don't have a project. And the stuff that you mentioned were things like opening the mail and applying for credit cards, which does not seem like huge, insurmountable obstacles. So like I'm wondering to what extent you are like a high functioning version of the characters on screen who, like you, make movies so you can drop out of society for a while with like a bunch... It's cute that I was talking about mail because when did you last get mail? No, I'm just like a cranky old lady. This is like the guy, the old Muppet guys in the balcony.- Statler and Waldorf?- Yes, exactly.- You're both.- I liked having a human pick up a phone. I don't like talking to a robot or a robot, telling me how much they appreciate me. I like when you actually can't get through to a human. Or... I liked going to the post office. Things that, like, hardly exist now. I like going to the pharmacy. I don't want to get my drugs in the mail. I don't even want to go to the weed store. I want to, like, meet my friend's brother and go through his suitcase.- I don't like...- Hang out for like a half hour talking about Dungeons and Dragons. Not that, but, but, I mean, I don't know if people outside of America realize how much, I mean, rents are high everywhere. I think cost of living is high everywhere. But people live by trying to get health insurance in America. And if you don't have a job, you probably don't have health insurance, and that is especially when you become my age, just the struggle for health insurance is a full time obsession for people, and I live in a rich country.- Yeah.- You know? Let's pivot to a different topic.'Cause I could go on and this is going to be a great podcast. Yeah, no, it will. You guys brought your sleeping bags, right? Believe me my wife is in the audience she'll tell you that you and I can complain all day long. But for the sake of this audience, we shan't. After this movie, your first film, there's like a ten year period where you're not making movies and you've said that you spent this time kind of making Super 8 movies... It's not that I wasn't trying. Right. Well, you said that you spent your time, this is what I'm curious about. Like fucking up. You spent your time, like, doing stuff. And I mean, to be honest, like, the 90s was not a nice time for women to make films. It was not an open door and all the groovy male filmmakers, it was not hospitable to women. It was unhospitable to women. There's a reason there's not a lot of, when you look at those decades that women aren't making films. So I was always trying to make a film during that time, but I could not. So I would say on the flip-side of it, I just kept working. And I went back to Super 8 and I learned how to edit, and I just practiced should I ever get the chance, and made things that were small enough that I could fuck up and no one would care or see them. And so that I would say, is like maybe what I was probably talking about and that I just was consuming a lot of films and learning the history of film. And, you know, as I said, I grew up not being exposed to a lot of stuff besides like <i>Day of the Dolphin</i> and the Pink Panther movies, you know? So I was in Boston at the time, and then in New York, two cities where you can, there's just art house films, and you can see everything projected you'd ever want to see. It was like sort of my schooling time. Self schooling time. The other thing that I hear happened in that ten year span is you had some sort of momentous trip to visit the places where <i>In Cold Blood</i> happened. You took like a road trip down Route 50. Route 50 goes across east to west. It's like the last two lane highway. Why that movie and why that route?'Cause it feels like that makes sense. I took a lot of road trips. I'd just drive around the country a lot. And then at that time, I had my dog and I take her. So, yeah, I thought I'd go out to Kansas where <i>In Cold Blood</i> took place and just, you know, see if I could find the house or find various things. The courthouse. But before I went, my friend Todd Haynes had moved to Portland and I was working on films. I was working in the art department on films, and I had worked on Todd's film <i>Poison</i>, and we became friends and I went out to see him, and I met John Raymond, writer of <i>The Half Life</i>, and he gave me <i>The Half Life</i>. And I got to Kansas, and I was finishing <i>The Half Life</i> in the motel room that first day there. And I ended up getting really distracted by <i>The Half Life</i>. And I wrote John and asked him if he had any short films, 'cause at that time I was just making, like trying to do narrative on Super 8. I think I asked him if he had a story that took place outside 'cause I wouldn't have any lights and that I could write a dog into 'cause I had this dog that could never be left alone. And he sent me <i>Old Joy</i>. So I detoured from the <i>In Cold Blood</i> trip, and I went out to LA and my friend was working on <i>Top Model</i> and he got me a job on <i>Top Model</i> as a so-called writer. And I worked on that so that I could have time to write this script for <i>Old Joy</i>. Wait a minute, is this <i>Top Model</i> the reality show? Yeah. Season one. Season two. So are we going to see some influence of<i>Top Model</i> season two on your development? No. At that point I was teaching at NYU, a place I was very ill suited to, and I really disliked teaching there. So I took this semester off, but worked on Top Model, and that allowed me to make some money so that I could go to Portland and scout for <i>Old Joy</i>. We've got a clip of <i>Old Joy</i> that I want to play, and I want to play it after one more influence that you've mentioned, which was a Apichatpong Weerasethakul's movie <i>Blissfully Yours</i>. I wanted to play a clip of it, but it's bizarrely hard to find. But what about that movie so captured you at that moment? Well, I wrote the script for <i>Old Joy</i>-- By the way, my influences so far, we got the Pink Panther and <i>Top Model</i>. Yeah. Pretty good.- I see it all.- Right. I went back to New York and Queens, where I had an apartment, and I had written the script, and I was showing it to my friends, and all my friends were like, there's not really a movie there. Like, this just isn't a movie. And then I showed it to one of my friends who lived upstairs from me in Queens, who's like a real cinephile. And I came home one night and in a plastic bag on my door was a VHS copy of <i>Blissfully Yours</i>. And I watched that and I was like, okay, it is a movie. Like, I can do this. Like, it just kind of gave me a kind of permission. I mean, I was gonna do it anyway, but it just was great to see. I mean, I haven't seen it because I was tracking it down for this interview I couldn't find it and, I'm assuming it seems from its trailer, which you folks are welcome to go and find on YouTube that it is set in kind of jungle or forest.- Yeah, as many of his films are.- Yes. And it's like it seems very slow paced. It's kind of a romance.- What about it, I guess grabbed you?- I guess just the... They were people, in this case in the jungle, mine were people in an old growth forest who had past relationships and were just sort of finding their way in nature. And the deeper they get into nature, how it affects how open they are or what's fearful in a city versus what's fearful in silence of nature, and how the quiet could build tension as opposed to like, a pounding soundtrack. But even when I was making <i>Old Joy</i>, everyone, apparently not to my face, but later, I was told, kept saying like they had, the crew and all, had bets going of whether or not this could really be a movie. And so, you know... but I was confident after seeing <i>Blissfully Yours</i>. And she was right to be. How <i>Old Joy</i> set Kelly Reichardt on a slow, quiet path to acclaim. And how it finally led to <i>The Mastermind</i>, coming up in just a minute. Stay with us. All right, everybody MUBI is the global film company that champions great cinema, bringing it to you wherever you are in as many ways as we possibly can. We stream movies, we produce them, we distribute them in cinemas. Movies from any country, from legendary filmmakers to brilliant first timers, we've always got something new for you to discover. And I want to tell you about something we've cooked up that you can discover not on a screen, but on the beautiful printed page. It's the companion book to the movie you're going to hear us talk about in the next act of this episode,<i>The Mastermind</i>. The book is called, cunningly, <i>The Mastermind</i>. Like Kelly's films, it is, first of all, beautiful to behold. It's a box set of four booklets in a slipcase, and it documents the making of this great movie. It is full of personal reflections, photographs and fragments of memory from Kelly and her collaborators. There's also an exploration of Arthur Dove, the real life American abstract painter whose paintings get snatched in the movie, gorgeous reproductions of his work. This thing is incredibly cool, and you can order it now for delivery in 2026. Head to mubieditions.com to snag a copy and to peruse the rest of our MUBI Editions book offerings. You can also head to mubi.com to subscribe and stream <i>The Mastermind</i>, along with a bunch of Kelly's other films. We've got all the links and info you need for all of this in the show notes of this episode. Speaking of which, let's get back to the conversation and the episode. So Kelly Reichardt's second feature,<i>Old Joy</i>, is about two old friends. Mark, who has a career and a family, and Kurt, a loner. They decide to get together for the first time in years to hike to a natural hot springs in the middle of the Cascade Mountains. In this scene, they find it, get stoned, and as Mark settles into a rustic bath. Kurt suddenly starts massaging his shoulders.<i>Hey, what's going on?</i><i>Just relax man.</i><i>- Just settle in.- All right.</i> Mark is tense, but slowly relaxes, his hand gripping the side of the bath goes limp and floats palm up in the bathwater. For a long time we're close on his face and the sound of burbling spring water. Until Reichert cuts to a wider shot of rain falling in the woods outside. And then to a flowing stream. I love that scene, that's just a heartbreaking moment of friendship. Reichert edits her movies. So I asked her how she put the sequence together. Do you remember finding that structure of it? It's all close-ups. And then going from those close-ups of people to the progressively larger shots of water, basically. It's funny because Justine Kurland, the photographer, she did a book of people in nature, very Pacific Northwest, and it was her photo book that John wrote <i>Old Joy</i> for. And when she saw the film, it really stuck in my mind, she really hated the shot of the hand so much turning over."I can't believe that was so heavy handed. I can't believe you..." So whenever I see that scene, that's all I think.- Really?- Yeah. But, you know, by design, you are going to get be intimate with them and get in them. And then, I mean, before this, we're in the, in the bigger setting, and then we go into their little world and then we... I'm not really good at talking about the films, to be honest.- Like the undercurrents of what...- I'll say... I love the idea that it's like that one shot of the hand falling off the side of the bath is too heavy handed. Like for those who haven't seen this movie, that's the climax of the film. Yeah, like that's as crazy heavy duty as it gets. And apparently I went too far. You're like. It's like an explosion as far as she's concerned. That's amazing. There's also I mean, this is your second feature film now, I'd say another undercurrent we haven't even gotten into yet in a lot of your films is this they're very feminist films, and your second film is about two men, and I'm wondering if that occurred to you at the time or, like what? Why? That was the thing that you felt was the next one. In John's story, there were really no women. So I married the guy in the tub. He has a wife in the film now, and she's pregnant and they're supposed to go shopping for a crib and stuff. And this other character, his old friend, comes into town and he kind of ditches his wife and goes off with his friend. So the women are not invited, and that's why they're not in the film. They're not invited on the camping trip. It's very exclusive. Is that what attracted you to that then, as a feminist, this idea that they're purposely kind of excluding. Well, yeah, that wasn't in John's story. So that was something I put into the story. But I think you've made like this heartbreaking portrait to me as a man. Like watching that because this has happened I think a lot of men in the room could probably identify with this, is that you do lose touch over time with your friends. Women traditionally like, hang on to those relationships and men just let them go. And I feel like you've hit on something, but it's like for your second film as a feminist, to be going for that. Well, it kind of worked out for me because people didn't really know who I was, and people thought Kelly was a man.- And so it...- Wow!- It opened some doors, by accident.- Really? Yeah. Everywhere I went, they were like,"Oh, wait, what?" Yeah. So that was good.- Yeah.- Wow. So you... They thought you were like, an Iron John type maybe. Yeah. Like something. Yeah. Guys finding themselves in the wilderness. That's amazing. Well, let's go really quickly before we get to <i>The Mastermind</i>.<i>Meek's Cutoff</i>, addressing some of the similar things. First, I just want to say it opens with shots of pioneer people, many of them women, doing chores in like, a river, I believe. And you have said that you love filming chores and process.- Yes.- And I wonder why that is.- I love a chore.- Why? First of all... I don't know. It's very calming. You can achieve it. Most chores-- and I just, I like watching people do stuff, and chores are good. And they're different in different times with the chores are so in, <i>Meek's</i>, they're doing chores near a river, and then they're going to be without water for the rest of their journey, which is problematic.- Yeah.- Interesting. It's like they really need water, and they're just like using it as a tool. Yeah, they don't know it's their last time seeing water. It's interesting. You said also that you like, instead of rehearsing very often you have your actors do the chores that their characters would do. What did you have Michelle Williams... We had 'Pioneer Camp' so they came out a week early and they had to learn how to walk the oxen, and we used oxen instead of horses. And I always was like, the pioneers had oxen. Why is every Western with horses? Oxen are very dangerous and they don't back up. So you can never like, when you do a second take, you always have to be moving forward your whole crew,'cause oxen don't go backwards. And there's a lot of reasons to not use oxen. And I would never do that again. But they had to learn how to walk the oxen, which was kind of paramount. And then also they had to learn how to build fire without matches, how to grind coffee and make coffee and put up the tents and take down the tents, a million times. So it would--'Cause when we catch up with them their way into their trip, and so they're past the inspirational, like "We're going to get to heaven on earth" kind of the inspiration is gone, and now they're down to like, if you look at the diaries of the pioneer women and the men, they go from aspirational to I put up the tent, I cook the beans, I cut the bacon. I put down the tent. I walked this many miles. So they're at that stage when we catch up with them. And then they each just had this one set of clothes. And so, yeah, there was a revolt at some point where the actors I was trying to get everyone to not shower, and there was a revolt where they got together and refused to act if they couldn't wash their clothes once'cause they were just so smelly,'cause it was like 110 degrees out there. And so the other thing is the women learning how to maneuver those wagons with no peripheral vision because of the bonnets, which is what pioneer women had to do. So you're walking these oxen and you can't see what's going on beside you. You can only see what's directly in front of you. And that's sort of the approach I took for how I shot the film. You know, I use like a square frame instead of a rectangle, so you couldn't see where they were or where they were going. You would just be with them. And I think overall like giving the actors physical things to do, especially responding to animals, keeps people incredibly present. It's a non-acting technique, really. Like, I mean, you'll be killed if you screw up with those oxen. And so yeah, keeping actors busy is a good thing. Yeah, I've heard that meals, like, it's very hard to act badly if you're actually eating a meal because you have to actually eat. Yeah, but meals are a nightmare. That's... Well, just sound. I had too many meals in<i>Mastermind</i>. Yeah, yeah. Well, let's get to that, actually. Although, actually. Wait, you've given us some insight to a Kelly Reichardt set what I do want to know, what is it actually like on a Kelly Reichardt set? I'm assuming that it's not long silences like.- On a set.- Yeah. That set, <i>Meek's Cutoff</i> was, that was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. And it was the hardest thing I think the actors would say that they've ever done. And I'm so lucky no one got hurt on that film. We were really in the middle of nowhere and there were rattlesnakes and it went from being 110 degrees where someone had, what do you call it when you get too hot?- Yeah, heatstroke.- Yes. In the desert, which is really dangerous. And then it dropped to like 20 degrees and someone got the opposite of heatstroke.- Frostbite.- No not frostbite. But were you go into like a seizure because you're too cold. Anyway, too many things were dangerous on that film because we were really far from a road, and we would go across this playa every day. And then we learned, if it rains, you can't get, you're trapped, you can't get back across the playa. So at the end of the day, people would pack up and there was a race to be in the front, because if you were in the back, you were just eating dust. Anyway, we pushed everyone too far in that film. And some people really went crazy in the desert. And I was like, well, this is obviously the last film I'm ever making. And so, you know, I'll just do whatever I want to do because clearly I'm never making another movie. But okay, that was the extreme, but we had quite a pleasant time making as far as that goes. You know? I mean, filmmaking is hard. In making <i>Mastermind</i> it was like, we shot in the fall.<i>Mastermind</i> and <i>First Cow</i> were both much better experiences because for one thing, the weather wasn't killing anybody. But it's a good experience. I mean, we, I work with a lot of the same people over and over, and we're very close. And so it's like picking up on a conversation and not starting from scratch all the time. And I feel like it's like on a trip together and an adventure and everyone's all in. It's not like the actors are really separate from the crew, like actors are usually sort of more separate from the crew and hang out in their trailers and stuff, and we don't have those kind of amenities, so... The lack of budget helps.- Breed some camaraderie.- Yeah. Let's move on to the what sounds like a great adventure: <i>Mastermind</i>. What was the first inkling of this movie? Where did it come from? I'm looking forward to the answer'cause it's like I feel watching it, that it could have come from anywhere. It could be the character, it could be the era. It could be the genre. Like what came first?- The circular drive.- What? The circular drive that's outside the museum. Kelly's talking about a location in the opening act of <i>The Mastermind</i>, where in a scene that is both tense and hilarious, our hero parks his getaway car in a museum's circular driveway as his fellow thieves clumsily load up the trunk with priceless Arthur Dove paintings.<i>Hey, go easy, man. Easy.</i> But then, as he finally tries to pull away.<i>Honk or something.</i> He realizes another car has randomly decided to park right in front of him, blocking the escape route. Oh, this isn't good. It's a scene Kelly literally ripped from the headlines. Art heist stories just interest me. And I was cruising around the internet for art heists, and there was a 50th year anniversary of in 1972, when these teen girls had gotten caught up in an art heist. They went to the museum for an art assignment for their high school, and some guys were stealing some masterpieces, some big art, and they got caught up in the scuffle and I was like, oh, that is amazing. And then there was the description of how their car blocked them in a circular drive. And then I think I was like, had just revisited Costa-Gavras's <i>State of Siege</i> at the time. And there's a montage, a car montage at the beginning of that film, because they're going to kidnap a senator, and it's really beautiful the way it moves from car to car. And I had this whole elaborate car circular drive thing in my mind, which I had my circular drive for like five hours, and it's not as elaborate as my... But we did what we could. So it started there, that particular snatch and grab or heist, whatever you want to call it. This is back before security cameras and back when there were circular drives in front of museums, and they'd go in and just grab some paintings and run out. And so I set it in 1972, which would put it just like the end of the 60s, the living in the 50s, suburbia like that's been deemed not to be the dream it was portrayed to be. And the country is super divided. 70 is like the year America bombs Cambodia and the shootings at Kent State happen,- where the protesters are shot- By the National Guard. By the National Guard, who are going to my hometown, Portland, as we speak. Yeah, you're almost sort of answering my next question, which is like, were you aware of the parallels to the modern day as you started thinking of that era? Well, you can't be. Well, you know, when we made the film, things were different. You know, we started filming before Trump. We filmed during the election, but we were still giving arms to Israel and we were still a divided country. And you start this movie, there's like a, in the background, we hear a news story where they're talking about students protesting on campus and how cynical they've become, etc, etc. I mean, did you ever think about setting this movie in the modern day? No. You couldn't. I mean, really, while we were filming in the museum, a young guy did a snatch and grab. He went in and grabbed two etchings and ran out into the woods with them. But like a heat, a drone with a heat, you know, caught him in like ten minutes. So, I mean, you couldn't really do the story now, and I don't know how to address the political situation in an art way at this point. Like, I don't have enough bird's eye view of where this is all going, or like, I wanted to not be in this moment. So it's maybe an escape for you, in a way. Well, definitely, I wanted to. I mean, what date are we in right now? We're like the first week of October. Last year, I hadn't even started filming yet. I mean, that's how much I did not want to be in the world, like, I stop shooting and I went into the editing room and I cut every day. But obviously, as you're working on it, you realize the parallels are revealing themselves constantly. And because America repeats its stupidness all the time. But, you know, then there's art. You know, Arthur Dove's like, the good side of America. You know, Arthur Dove's an American, kind of considered the first American abstract painter. And just like that, all those things exist in the sort of handbasket of America. But at some point, you know, you got to kind of quit thinking about the political and think about just the character and the day you're in and what that character is doing that day, and let all the other stuff kind of go. Yeah, we're running low on time. I did want to ask you a last question, though, about this movie. I'm watching this film... The opening scene and the heist itself were like pulse pounding. And I could imagine, like, if it was any other filmmaker and I'd watch this movie, I would be like, oh, their next movie is going to be like a Hollywood thriller. This is their calling card and they'll do a Hollywood thriller. Obviously not going to happen with you, but you've also worked with big stars. I do wonder to what extent Hollywood has ever come knocking and been like, hey, you know, here's, I don't know, a Pink Panther Redux or something to do. And what are those conversations like? Because I'd love to be a fly on the wall. Yeah, I haven't had those conversations. I mean, I have a teaching job that I like. I really like my teaching job. I have a community of people, colleagues that I teach with that mostly aren't narrative filmmakers. And so that's always an interesting world to be in. And then I like making films with my community that I make films with, and I'm not the most flexible person. I can't just like enter another world where like other people have opinions and I mean, like I'm in a completely collaborative situation with the people I make films with, but they're of my world. It's just, it's just not a thing.- Yes.- Yeah. It's not going to happen. It's not happening. Yeah. I for one, am glad. I mean, for everyone's glad. No, I mean, like they are too. Yeah, but they've been beating down the door. I'll just tell you no... wondering if, I like to believe that someone's holding back the calls somewhere. But I don't know who that would be. Kelly Reichardt, <i>The Mastermind</i>, is streaming now on MUBI and I cannot recommend it enough. Check the show notes of this episode to subscribe and start watching. And that is the MUBI Podcast. Next episode, coming later this week. We go back to our season about food on film with one of the world's great filmmakers who put Chai at the center of her breakthrough movie and her life. It takes 20 minutes. You know, I make it every morning, so I know. Yeah, this ain't just putting a bag in a cup. No, no, no. That's what we call Musungu chai, which is the restless white folk do it like that. The legendary Mira Nair talks about how she brewed up her debut,<i>Salaam Bombay!</i> and dishes on what her son, Zoram Mamdani, eats at home. Follow us so you don't miss it. Also, if you've got questions, comments, or you just want to sound off on your favorite Kelly Reichardt movie, our email is podcast@mubi.com And now let's roll credits. This episode was hosted and written by me Rico Gagliano Ciara McEniff produced it along with assistant producer Kat Kowalczyk. Christian Coons edited and mastered this episode. Our original theme music was composed by Yuri Suzuki. Huge thanks this week to Elodie Fagan, Ibit Omer, Marie Kloos, and everyone who made MUBI Fest Berlin a blast. Also Linda Winkler, Kai Kern and the Silent Green team in Berlin who did tech and recorded this event. What a place you got there. This show is executive produced by me along with Efe Çakarel Daniel Kasman and Michael Tacca. And finally, for the best in cinema, subscribe to MUBI at mubi.com Thanks for listening. Go watch some movies.