HAL & HARPER — Cooper Raiff comes unstuck

Sibling duo Hal and Harper are best friends, and have been ever since they lost their mother as children. But is there such a thing as being too close? And when your family is your life raft, what does it look like to let go? Cooper Raiff, the writer, director and star of the TV series HAL & HARPER tells guest host Simran Hans why he had to get Lili Reinhart to play his big sister, and how he summoned his inner 7 year old to play Hal.

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Transcript

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Heads up, this episode contains some adult language, a few moments so poignant you may shed a tear, and spoilers. When Cooper Raiff started putting together his new TV show, <i>Hal & Harper</i>, he needed to cast someone as his older sister, and there was one

person he had in mind: 0:19

Lili Reinhart. I'm mesmerized by her eyes, and she's the person you want to follow into the dark. So he asked her to meet for coffee. I basically said, like, I'm interested in you playing my big sister. And she was like, "Oh, that's sweet." Cooper sent her the script, and after binge reading the first three episodes, she called him up. Then she randomly was like, "I'm going to this place called Mount Shasta"to visit a healer, and this is crazy, but do you want to come?"And we'll stay in a cabin together and go see this healer?" What do you remember about that trip to Mount Shasta? We healed together in lots of ways. It was a healer who would bang on drums and you'd sit on this couch and it wasn't together, Lili and I didn't do it together. It was a one on one, but I would lay on a couch and close my eyes, and I literally went into this place where I met my spirit animals, and I was like, okay, that is my big sister. Welcome back to the MUBI Podcast. I'm your guest host Simran Hans, and MUBI is a global film company that champions great cinema. On this show, we tell you the stories behind great cinema. We're in the middle of a season about food on film. Your regular host Rico Gagliano will be back with more of that later this week. But today we wanted to drop in this special episode. It's my conversation with Cooper Raiff about his new TV show, <i>Hal & Harper</i>. It's streaming on MUBI in the US, France and Latin America, and all the episodes are available now. The show is about a younger brother and an older sister, Hal and Harper, who were both in their 20s. The two are best friends and have been ever since they lost their mum as kids. But is it time for them to finally grow up? And what if growing up involves growing apart? These are the questions they have to confront when they learn dad is having a baby with his new girlfriend and selling their family home. I'm feeling scared about us not being together, and I'm really upset about our childhood house being sold. I'm okay with him having a baby, but I just don't want him to sell our childhood house. Cooper plays Hal with Lili Reinhart as his big sister Harper and Mark Ruffalo as Dad. It is warm, it's funny, and there's a strong chance it'll break your heart. In today's episode, we learn why<i>Hal & Harper</i> had to be a TV show and how Cooper summoned his inner seven year old in order to play the lead. First, though, I asked him about the moment right before he started making the show. The year was 2022 and everything was coming up Cooper. He was 25 years old, and his second film,<i>Cha Cha Real Smooth</i>, had just won the Audience Award at Sundance, where Apple bought the film for $15 million. Sundance got canceled because of the, like, 90th variant of Covid, and so I was at home with my friends and we found out through, like Twitter that we had won the Audience Award. And then after that, we were like in the middle of conversations with certain streamers and buyers and it was really exciting when it got bought. Honestly, the first thought that I remember having was, now I can do what I want to do. And that thing was <i>Hal & Harper</i>. There's something about winning the Audience Award, it makes you feel like, oh, I can do something that maybe audiences might not like, but I can get away with it. Why is that the project that you wanted to get off the ground next. Why was that the next thing? I had been writing <i>Hal & Harper</i> since I was in college, and I didn't ever, and still don't know why, I came up with these characters, but they've always been living in my subconscious. The initial idea was this kind of funny, or what I thought was funny idea of two kids who grew up too fast and they were seven and nine years old, but they were played by college students, and I wrote that show at first, and I tried to get that made before <i>Cha Cha</i>. And so I set it up at a network, actually. And what you find out really quickly when trying to make a TV show at a network is that you're not going to really make it for about 6 or 8 years, and I think that art needs to go faster than that. I kind of stalled out there mentally and started working on <i>Cha Cha</i>, because I just realized that this TV show wasn't going to happen, and I was really sad about it. But when <i>Cha Cha</i> did well, my first thought was, oh, I can go make this show the way that I want to make it. And my first idea was to make it independently, because I knew that was the fastest, easiest way to to make it. I'm kind of interested to hear a little bit more about why it ended up taking this form, because I understand that it started as a web series.- Yes.- Can you... talk a little bit about what it looked like in that early iteration? It sounds crazy and weird and it is, but my college girlfriend and I were in twin beds, like on opposite sides of my dorm room, my friend Will's dorm room, and my friend Will Youmans helped me write the show. Will is a comedian, and I'm not. And so it was kind of more of a schticky web series where Hal and Harper would sit in bed before bed every night and talk about what their dad said to them, that was like basically not something that you should say to a 7 or 9 year old. And like Harper was smoking cigarettes out of the window and no one thought it was funny except for me and Will and Madeline. And then after that, at some point, I was like, an actual TV show would be about college Hal and Harper and it was always a TV show. I loved TV because I think it's the only medium where you're able to dive into characters. TV, to me, is this opportunity to let the audience control how they dive in and when they want to dive in, and if they want to take a break. And <i>Hal & Harper</i>, it's heavy. I love that people watching are able to decide when they want to go all the way inside with these characters. Is there a particular TV show that you watched at your own pace in that way?<i>Normal People</i> really was the validating force that I think helped me trust that <i>Hal & Harper</i> was what it was supposed to be. I was obsessed with <i>Normal People</i>, just Sally Rooney's book, and I just knew that the TV show was going to be great. That show is just those two characters. I watched that show three times, and I remember talking to friends who I'd be like, "Are you watching?" And like, "Yeah, but I can't go to the finale yet."I can't finish it." And I love that. Like, they just weren't ready to, I don't know if it's they weren't ready to say goodbye or if they knew what was coming. And they were afraid of the pain or what, but it was, it's a beautiful show, and it was the show to me that made me realize <i>Hal & Harper</i> could work. What different things did the format of having multiple episodes offer you in terms of the storytelling and being able to have a different rhythm to a film? Just different emotional segments, I guess, like the show to me is about this family in the present who is very close and codependent, and their journey is one of coming apart. And to tell the story in the way that I wanted to tell it, I had to go back to the year that they came together. The third episode of <i>Hal & Harper</i> is going back in time and seeing these three individuals who are very alone and planting the seeds of, oh, I can go take care of that person and it will help me feel taken care of, or at least make me feel less alone. I think the story from there becomes about like, what does it actually mean to be there for someone, and what does it mean to be a dad? And what does Harper really need? The medium of TV just offers you this ability to do a story in nuggets. There was just so much story to tell with <i>Hal & Harper</i> and it's hard to be seamless about it. I was glad that you mentioned the third episode, because that's when we begin to see this really interesting device, which are these flashback scenes, as you said, that take us back to Hal and Harper's childhood. And in those scenes, you and Lili, who are two adult actors, play your your kid selves. Hey, guys, I got a surprise waiting at home.- Really?- Shitty French toast? No. No guesses.- Time machine?- No, it's a basketball hoop. To play basketball? Wait, did you get a ball too so we can shoot it in the goal? No, I thought we'd just use our imaginations. Wow! Cool. That's so fun. No, I got three balls. I was just joking.- Three balls!- Hal, everyone can hear you. And I'm curious to know how you sort of came up with that storytelling device. My immature understanding of it was, oh, these kids grew up too fast, so I'm going to show that they grew up too fast by showing them be older people. But then I think it sort of snowballed for me into realizing, oh, it's about these very emotionally stunted adults. And the best way to experience that emotionally is to see the very stunted 20 year olds as a first and third grader, 'cause then when you go back and see them, you sort of understand that they had this very unique childhood where they were very confused, and it's led to a lot of fear in their adult lives. Can you talk a little bit about where you wanted the tone to land with those scenes? Because, for example, you and Lili don't put on little kid voices. You play it quite straight. And some of those moments when you're running around with your little backpack and sort of, you know, trying to play basketball, some of those moments are kind of goofy and funny, but also absolutely heartbreaking as well. Something I talked about a lot during prep was how important it was that it felt really accessible and inviting. I never wanted it to feel"weird". Why do you think you rejected that word? Or what did "weird" conjure up in your mind that you didn't want this show to be. Like <i>Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind</i> came to mind. Like I did not want it to feel like that. People can call this thing weird, and that's-- But as the creator's not, it feels sort of very superficial to me or on the surface. But it was really important to make it silly. To me, it's very funny and I didn't ever want to go for situational comedy'cause I never do. I think the funniest stuff is the stuff that's given the most emotional content. And so I think that's where I'm always coming from. But like when they're playing basketball, the funniest part of it to me is dad having this seven and nine year old. And it's frustrating to have kids because they're not adults. And he's kind of trained them to act like adults. I love the idea of them being his height, but they are still frustrating the heck out of him because they can't get the ball up into the rim. And it's testing his parental patience because he's like,"You're right there, you're right there!" But they're not. They're kids. It was all inside of the emotional content of them growing up too fast. That's why I think it is so funny is Dad's like, "What are you doing, pal?"Just get it up there." Tell me about how you approached the physicality of a seven year old, because it's quite uncanny your impression of a seven year old. I think I do have a seven year old in me, and I maybe was tapping into that, but I didn't at all study the movements of a seven year old that I know. And with Lili, it was, it was just this kind of trust that we're gonna, on the day, we're gonna find it. What things are you looking for as the director? Is it in the way that somebody holds themself? Is it in the way that they walk? As a director, I'm not looking for anything. I'm just kind of feeling. And if it feels right, it's right. I never directed Lili as the nine year old. I was directing the kids around her, but, yeah, I was never looking for anything specific. I truly don't remember giving her a single note. She was just on this other planet. For a seven year old Hal it was just this desperation of needing connection and needing some sort of way to survive. And Harper's his way to survive.<i>Hal!</i><i>- Harper?- What's going on?</i><i>- Hi, there, we're trying not to cry.- I'm his big sister.</i> Like Cooper says, Hal and Harper depend on each other for survival. And that is never more clear than in this scene, which sees kid Hal trapped in a tire swing.<i>I'm stuck in here. I'm trying to get out.</i><i>I'm really trying my best to get out, but I feel like I'm</i><i>gonna be stuck here forever.</i><i>You're not gonna be stuck here forever.</i><i>We'd just saw you out of there if we had to, buddy.</i><i>- Like, saw my body?- No! The tire.</i><i>- I really don't want to do that.- Hal, it's okay.</i> That's the scene that makes me the most emotional in the show.- Oh, I definitely cried.- Yeah. Me too. I cried too at that scene. The whole show is about this older sister struggling with"This is not my responsibility."It's not my responsibility to walk this young adult through the rest of his life." And to me, it's this scene where she's like, "You know what I'm gonna say to you?"That no matter what, no matter what, I'm here."<i>What do you mean?</i><i>I mean, if you are actually stuck here forever.</i><i>That's totally cool.</i><i>If you're really stuck here for the rest of your life, I will be here too.</i><i>All day, every day.</i><i>I'll be hanging out here every single night.</i><i>All night. I'll be sleeping on the ground right next to you.</i><i>- You will?- Yeah.</i><i>And it'll be great.</i> If you're stuck and stunted and can't move for the rest of your life, I will sit here and he's like,"What if it rains?"<i>- What about when it rains?- Raincoats.</i><i>Hal, it's going to be okay.</i> That's what sets us off on the journey to loving ourself, is that unconditional love from a parent or from an older sister. And I just I find it endlessly emotional that that's the thing that that gets him out of the the tire is her saying,"I'll be here forever."I'm not I'm not going to leave you." In your own life, are you more of a Hal, or are you more of a Harper in terms of your role in your in your family dynamic? I mean, really, it's both. I'm deeply afraid of pain in a way that Hal is like, he's just so avoidant of emotions. And with Harper, she's kind of living with that pain and that heaviness. But I think she's deathly afraid of her little brother and her dad feeling that pain. To me, they're all just dealing with this fear of emotion, and Harper is able to carry it. But that doesn't necessarily mean that she's not terrified of it in her family. So I think it's like that with me. You and Lili have incredible chemistry as siblings. When was the first time she began to feel like she could be your sister? I always felt so calm around her. Like I can't describe it other than like, it felt like we had spent many past lives together. And when Mark came along, we all just literally right away we're like,"Oh, we were a family in a past life" and we've debated what we actually were, and maybe Mark was actually our kid. And that's why <i>Hal & Harper</i> is the way that it is. Definitely, there's this connection that we all have. Let's talk about Mark Ruffalo for a second. You cast Mark Ruffalo as Dad. What was the quality he had that made you want him for the role?- Other than him being Mark Ruffalo?- He was my son in a past life. I was obsessed with <i>13 going on 30</i>. I was obsessed with<i>You Can Count on Me</i> when I saw it. I've always felt so, so, so connected to him, and there was nothing like meeting him in person for the first time. It was just like, oh my goodness, he makes you feel so comfortable around him. And it's something about the way that he's so sturdy but feels like a kid. Like he's very youthful in his energy, but he also can feel like a rock. And he also just he deals with depression and you feel that. And the person playing Dad needed to to have that. He actually plays a detective all the time. And I think there's a reason for that. Just spending time with him in real life, he has that quality where his eyes and his conversations that he's constantly searching and you want to follow him. I'm interested in the fact that Dad is a single dad. And in your film <i>Cha Cha Real Smooth</i> one of the protagonists is a single mom. Why do you think that you're drawn to these stories of parents who are going it alone? I don't know. One for my therapist. I am endlessly interested in what it means to be a parent. There is no denying that there's some sort of grief that I'm interested in. Because it's about someone being a parent against certain odds, while dealing with a lot of their own grief. Your work feels really personal, but you've said it's it's not autobiographical.<i>Hal & Harper</i>, for example, is not the story of your family. But how has your relationship with your family informed this story? My family, at least, is very close, and that closeness was not always healthy. And like I'm the oldest, I have two little sisters, and when I went off to college, it was extremely, extremely hard. And I had a lot of, I think a therapist would call it survivor's guilt. So I was an only child for four years. And then my sister Andrea was born with Holoprosencephaly, which means her brain didn't divide into two hemispheres like there was something wrong with her, and they knew. But then seven months in, they were like,"She's never going to walk"and she's never going to talk." And my parents, I think, naturally, were obliterated by that. And now, as an adult, I know that my mom's grandma died a month before that, and then a month after that, 9/11 happened. And it was a very just dark, dark time in my family's life. What preceded it was four awesome freaking years, for me.'Cause I was the only child and my parents are awesome and showered me with love and attention, and then this thing happened. And so I think <i>Hal & Harper</i> is kind of set off by the same sort of thing that my life was set off with. And Harper is four when her mom passes away and very tragically, and I was a four year old who saw things change dramatically and was very worried and very sensitive. And I've let my parents know this. So this isn't new. I can share it that I think what I was missing was they did not tell me that everything was going to be okay. That's the journey that <i>Hal & Harper</i> kind of go on is realizing that kids don't know what's happening, and they need to be told that everything is going to be okay. And I really needed to be told that, and was not. And I don't think my parents did think that everything was going to be okay. It built a lot of stuff inside of me that I've had to kind of unravel in my adulthood and let go of certain fears and let go of certain pain because it's not mine. And my sister is my sister. I think I thought of her as my child for a long time, and I've had to realize, like when I went to college, it was extremely, it felt like leaving my baby. And I had some therapy session sob about how she was not my child. She's my younger sister. I really appreciate you sharing that. It's about a dynamic that a lot of people can relate to, which is something changing dramatically in your family life and you don't really understand what's going on when it's happening. And it's only with hindsight you really can reckon with the impact of that. And it sounds like making it has been quite a healing process for you. Yeah, it's been healing, but it's still been devastating too, because I think <i>Hal & Harper</i>, at its core, is about not knowing when you grew up and searching and knowing that you can't find it, and just being at peace with that and realizing that you still have so much to do, so much to heal, so much growing to do. Do you see that sort of that healing process or that catharsis as a happy byproduct of making art, or is it the whole point of it? I think it's the whole point. There are some filmmakers who are obsessed with filmmaking, and I am really, really not. If you are spending time with this family, you're having to spend time with yourself. I don't want to say like, it's going to heal you. I hope that people watching find a certain sense of healing that the family does. And I can say that the show ends on this extremely, profoundly hopeful note, but I know that why I make things is to mine something in me to let someone else mine that in them. And I don't give a flying fuck about filmmaking! What I care about is art, offering audience members the ability to dive into themselves. There's this moment in the finale, Lili Reinhart, playing Harper, gives this gift to audience members. They don't have to get there on their own. They can watch and experience this performance in this moment. And it just no matter what, it's going to take you there. And I think that that's what art can do is, is hold your hand and take you there. Cooper Reiff.<i>Hal & Harper</i> is streaming on MUBI in the US, France and Latin America. And if you're in those countries, all eight parts are available to watch now. Meanwhile, follow us for more stories about great films and great filmmakers. This Thursday, Rico will be back with another episode in our ongoing season about food on film with a look at the documentary that changed how the world eats sushi. Nozawa was an old sushi master in Los Angeles. He took me out to his new Nozawa Bar And he was like,"You made people understand the omakase." Director David Gelb talks about his breakthrough, <i>Jiro Dreams of Sushi</i>. Follow us so you don't miss it. And if you've got questions, comments, or perhaps just some family trauma of your own our email is podcast@mubi.com

Now let's roll credits: 24:44

This episode was written and hosted by me, Simran Hans. Our editor is Christian Koons. Ciara McEniff is our producer with help from assistant producer Kat Kowalczyk. Our theme music is by Yuri Suzuki. Special thanks to our friends at WBEZ Chicago who recorded Cooper and to Louis Nash who recorded me. This show is executive produced by Efe Çakarel, Rico Gagliano, Mike Tacca and Daniel Kasman. And finally, to watch the best in cinema, subscribe to MUBI at mubi.com Thanks for listening. And if you've got a sibling, maybe give them a call.