DIE MY LOVE — Lynne Ramsay unleashes the beast

In DIE MY LOVE, new mother Grace (a virtuosic Jennifer Lawrence) is stuck at home while her disinterested husband Jackson (Robert Pattinson) is at work. With only her baby, a barking dog, and her own thoughts to keep her company, she begins to unravel. Visionary writer-director Lynne Ramsay talks to guest host Simran Hans about her feral, frightening, and funny portrait of a woman on the brink.

DIE MY LOVE is now playing in theaters in the US, Canada, the UK, Ireland, Latin America, Australia, Germany, and Spain. 

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Transcript

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Heads up, this episode contains adult themes, spoilers, and in some spots kinda murky audio quality If you're not quite making out every word you can check out our subtitled video version on YouTube. The first scene, you know, in the book is she's crawling through the grass, observing her family. She's got a knife in her hand. She's watching her baby. And you know her husband, like, as if she was a stranger, you know, like she's stalking through the grass watching her life. That's a pretty bold opening. You're like,"What the hell is going to happen now?" It's like she's watching what her life has become from the outside. Like a stalker almost, you know? And so it was pretty bold right away. That is filmmaker Lynne Ramsay. And pretty bold is one way to describe her new film <i>Die My Love</i>. You might also call it fearless, frightening and darkly funny. It's based on the novel by Ariana Harwicz, and it's about a young couple, Grace and Jackson, who moved to a fixer upper house in rural Montana. Their life is full of creativity and sex and endless possibilities until they have a baby. And Grace's life, and then Grace herself start to come apart at the seams.<i>Cheryl mentioned that you're a writer.</i><i>Yeah, I don't do that anymore.</i><i>Why not? Stuck for inspiration?</i><i>I'm stuck between wanting to do something and not wanting to do...</i><i>anything at all.</i> I'm Simran Hans stepping in for Rico Gagliano. Welcome back to the MUBI Podcast. MUBI's the global film company that champions great cinema. And on this show we tell you the stories behind great cinema. Rico's back next week with a new season for you to feast on, but here's one of our special episodes. It's my conversation with writer director Lynne Ramsay about <i>Die My Love</i>. Part domestic drama, part haunted house thriller. It features Jennifer Lawrence in a go-for-broke performance as Grace, that helped to earn a nine minute standing ovation at this year's Cannes Film Festival. And it's in cinemas now in the US, UK and lots of other countries. Lynne is the visionary Scottish filmmaker behind <i>Ratcatcher</i>, <i>Morvern Callar</i>,<i>We Need to Talk About Kevin</i> and <i>You Were Never Really Here</i>. We'll hear why she thinks a couple in this psychodrama are like a modern day version of screwball legends Katharine Hepburn and Spencer Tracy, and why she sent Jennifer Lawrence and her co-star Robert Pattinson to dance classes. First, though, I asked Lynne about Grace's physicality in the film. At various points, we see Jennifer Lawrence lick a dirty window, strip to her underwear at a kid's birthday party, and she spends a lot of time prowling around like some kind of animal. It was quite inspired by the original material, which is a book by Ariana Harwicz. The character in it's very feral, irreverent, you know, unapologetic, animalistic. Within her psychosis, you hadn't seen a character like that who's almost kind of liberating, you know, in some respects. So yeah, it's a quite physical performance. You used the word feral there, and I think we could go even further and say cat like, maybe? Maybe, yeah. That kind of came around in a way, because when they move into the house, there's rodents there, you know, and it's just a tiny little blink-and-you-miss-it moment But, she kind of hears things. And then her husband, the character Jackson, brings home a dog when she says, "We need a cat" you know? And so it's kind of funny, it's absurd. But she's bored in this house. She can't write, you know, she's isolated. And, you know, that side developed over time while we were making it. And obviously, you know, you alluded to it there, but she spends a lot of time in this film on all fours in various scenarios. That sounds bad! But yeah. Yeah she did. No, she-- it's a wildness and grace, you know, and it felt like she's a beast of sorts. The wildness of that character, you know, within quite a surrealistic novel which I used as a jumping off point rather than a literal translation. Felt, like I say, quite liberating for a character like this. She's very inappropriate sometimes, but she has a truth of some sort. And childlike as well. Childlike, I think, is a good word, and free as well. She's very free in how she how she moves. I wonder if you did use any particular kind of animal metaphors when you were describing to her how you wanted her to sort of stalk through the grass or be in this sort of prowling mode. She said something like,"I'm a cat, he's a dog." I mean, like things were coming up during prep. And also, like, it's part of your character in the first place? You know, like there was like you say, that kind of freedom. But I didn't give any particular direction in that because, like, she was great at doing that herself, you know? She's very trusting in me. And we spoke a lot in prep and talked about that kind of that the animalistic nature of this character, you know, that she's kind of untamed. I think that's a great word. Let's talk a little bit about the relationship between Grace and Jackson.

They're a couple who are always sparring: 5:16

verbally, sexually, sometimes physically. Tell me about the inspiration behind that dynamic. Well, you know, I always saw them as a couple that really loved each other, but they're just totally at odds with each other, especially now they've moved into this new environment. And I think he's a bit hapless at times, he doesn't really know what to do with her but he totally loves her and the things he probably loved about her in the first place, like her sexiness and her natural kind of nature and her sexuality were all present there. And now they become a bit more threatening, you know, as she starts to unravel. But also, they were hilarious, some of the arguments and stuff between them. You know, like it felt like... Spencer Tracy and Katharine Hepburn having one of these big rows. But it's funny, you recognise it or, you know, like and all those kind of things between married couples that seem absurd, you know? So the humour was a big deal for me as well. A hundred percent. And there's a perverse enjoyment in kind of seeing them just go at each other, particularly in the scene where the house is a mess and the dog is barking and Jackson's shouting at Grace'cause she's not wearing any pants. Basically, Grace is kind of bored and letting everything go. And Jackson's just, like, infuriated by her. You know?<i>This place is a fucking hole.</i><i>You moved us into it.</i><i>I am working, and when I come home, I'm the one cleaning everything up.</i><i>Three days a week.</i><i>Let me shower you in medals.</i><i>Shut up!</i><i>You left an ashtray on the carpet.</i><i>You don't think the baby's eating that shit?</i><i>Shut up!</i><i>Move us into the house where your uncle shot himself up the fucking ass!</i><i>- Oh my God!- Up the ass!</i><i>Up the fucking ass! Stop!</i><i>I knew it, I knew it!</i><i>Why are your shorts undone?</i><i>Why do you not have your shorts on?</i><i>- Shut up!- Jesus Christ...</i><i>Fucking sanctimonious dick.</i><i>Probably pissed on the floor yourself. Blame it on the fucking dog.</i><i>He's your mangy dog.</i><i>And sanctimonious means</i><i>that you think you're morally superior to other people, Danny.</i> He's brought this dog back when she really wants a cat. Because there's mice and rats and stuff like that. They're living in a rural place, and the dog is the most annoying dog in the world, you know, like. And it kind of was, actually, the dog we chose. And he's trying to do a kind of good thing, you know, but it's just like the whole thing is kind of imploding somewhat. So he takes her to task for letting everything kind of the house kind of of deteriorate. And she takes him to task for bringing this dog home, you know, and this whole thing blows up in this mad way.<i>How's your book going, by the way?</i><i>Fantastic, thank you!</i><i>Your great American novel.</i><i>The main character is about to batter her husband to death with a hammer.</i><i>Sounds like shit.</i><i>Well, you can't read, so.</i> It's kind of, like, hilarious argument about two people stuck in this situation, you know? And it's absurd. But there's moments where, when we were playing it, where they just naturally started laughing or, you know, and I remember one scene when he drags her out of the car after the scene in the kitchen, they just started laughing'cause, you know, he was trying to get her in there, get her seatbelt on. Jennifer and Rob stopped and they were, "Oh, we're really sorry Lynne." And I was like, "No, there's something really alive in that!"'Cause it was just these moments in an argument where you have about each other, sometimes, where you're just like, "This is funny". And they just realise it's funny and it's stupid and it's absurd, you know? So it's kind of that, you know.<i>Maybe if you spent a little less time your hands down your pants,</i><i>and a little more time writing, maybe you’d write something.</i><i>Maybe!</i><i>My hands are down my pants 'cause</i><i>you put your dick everywhere except there, asshole!</i> And she's always masturbating as well. Which, you know, like, she wants sex the whole time. The more that she's unravelling, I think the more he's backing off from her, you know? Why did you ask Jennifer Lawrence and Robert Pattinson to take dance lessons together before shooting? Well, I had an inkling I might use some stuff. I might try something with...- Like a choreographed dance?- Yeah. Like I was like, you know, put them in such an embarrassing situation, I guess, like... dance expression or something. You know, these classes and stuff, like. And we didn't have a long prep. It was like only four and a half weeks. And, you know, normally you have, a longer prep for film like this. And I hadn't done any soft prep or anything like that, and but they were good, they came early, you know, and I just wanted everything that would break the ice and get them in sync with each other. You know, so we did some goofy things. But it worked, you know,'Cause all that embarrassment kinda went. And when you say expressive dance lessons, can you give me any description of what that was like? I think they had to be, like"the wind was coming" and, you know or it was raining, and like express themselves you know like, I dunno, within dance. And then they did some more synchronized dances together as well. You'd need ask her though,'cause I just left them with... with the teacher, you know. And that sort of broke the ice. And also the intimate scenes. I filmed them in the first day, but in chronological order, so that there was kind of felt like the evolution of a relationship in one scene, you know, And there's some tenderness as well. There's a beautiful scene where, you know, it's just a shot, but it's a little scene where he's painting her toenails post-coital, and it's got a real beauty to it. That was great 'cause it broke all the ice, because sometimes when you leave those scenes later, they kind of build to something. But I knew there was a lot of chemistry between them at first, and I think doing certain things and going through the script and talking a lot to each other and just all the trust that was there, meant we were up and running pretty quickly and they felt like a really authentic couple. So that was a real win for me'cause like, sometimes you don't know until people get together. Like, there was a chemistry that made me see them as a couple rather than just the actor. Part of this film is about how a woman's life, and also her sense of self starts to change after becoming a parent. You know, Grace is a writer who hasn't written since having a baby. I wonder how, obviously, you've got a daughter yourself I wonder how becoming a parent changed your relationship to yourself and in particular yourself as an artist. Well, you don't get much time to sleep at first. You know, sleep deprivation is definitely a thing. And you get someone else to consider. Sometimes with creativity it just gets like, you know, really... you hit a wall, you know, and I'll start to hoover and clean dishes and, you know, like, do anything, but do what I should be doing, you know, like. I think, you know, you have to be more structured. That definitely throws a spanner into the works. And so you have to use your time much more productively, let's say, you know. Yeah. And obviously her sense of self is beyond just herself as a writer. It's her whole identity who she is in her relationship as well. One thing that Jennifer said that I thought was interesting as well is that she's kind of becomes a bit invisible to him, so she's sort of trying to make herself visible, like to someone, you know, and that's-- and she feels like a caged animal within that house, and she's hitting a wall with everything. I mean, you don't see that aspect until the end, you know? But she keeps mentioning she can't work, so she's hit this kind of wall creatively within a relationship, sexually within her marriage, and as a mother. You've described Grace before as an anarchist, someone who's smashing up the world around her. What aspects of Grace do you see as punk or punk rock? Well, I suppose it was, that was in my narrative. My narrative was like, you know, in a way that I thought... she's not apologising for herself. She's not trying to elicit sympathy. You know, it's like within her mind, she's totally honest and truthful about everyth-- no one really, she doesn't see herself. Pam does, you know, the mother in law. And I think that in order to make herself visible to him and visible to the world, you know, like she she literally goes, there's a kind of liberation of sorts in it. You know, she literally does kind of set the world on fire, you know. How did you approach going beyond this sort of cinematic trope, or the stereotype of presenting a woman on the verge, because I think you do something really interesting with how you present the psychosis. It's not something that can be easily pathologized, and it's hard to depict that in an authentic way. So how are you thinking about not playing into those stereotypes and kind of doing something different? I think it was like for her, she's normal, she's fine. She doesn't see herself from the outside, and she can be really inappropriate with people and say things that we all want to say. But you wouldn't have, you know... it takes people a-back, you know? But there's a sort of truth in it. But in my mind is also that I think she's, because her creativity and because of, like, everything being stymied now, it's like, you know, pressure cooker about to explode. Can you talk a little bit about why you wanted so much of the movie to play out at night, or in those kind of early hours of the morning? It's a dream-like quality, and you're not quite, you know, one of the things in the novel as well, or in the original material was like, you're not quite sure what's real or not, you know. And I think that, we played it day for night, which is a, an old technique, you know, where you're shooting during the day, but you basically make it darker. You're looking for a certain type of light and stuff where it makes it feel very... otherworldly, you know. And I think that suited her mindset. So we did a lot of tests on that. And it had a sort of beauty to it, you know, and a quality that that felt like you weren't quite on Earth. The story goes that that Jennifer Lawrence and her producing partner wanted you to make this film because they had got hold of the book and they said that it felt like a Lynne Ramsay movie to them. What do you think they meant by that? I've got no idea, to be honest! I don't even know the story about the Martin Scorsese's book club. That's where it came from. And then, I mean, I literally got an email saying, "We'd love you to do this." And I took my time about it'cause I still had to find my way into what it was and make sure I wasn't, you know, exploding the same territory I had in other films, you know. So I said-- I saw it in my own way, you know? But yeah, I think you'd need to ask them that, I don't know! Lynne Ramsay.<i>Die My Love</i> is in cinemas now. For tickets and showtimes, head to mubi.com/diemylove To check out more of Lynne's work, her 2011 film <i>We Need to Talk About Kevin</i>, starring Tilda Swinton, is playing on MUBI in the US, Canada, Ireland, the UK and many more countries. Check the show notes for how to watch. Meanwhile, follow us for more episodes about great films and great filmmakers. Next week, your regular host Rico is back with a brand new season just in time for holiday feasts, it's all about food on film. And episode one is the story of an unlikely classic cooked up by an unlikely director. The last thing I wanted to do was a project that had taken five years that Pixar couldn't crack, based on three things that I know nothing about,

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rats and cooking and France. Brad Bird on <i>Ratatouille</i>. Follow us so you don't miss it. And if you've got questions, comments, or you teach expressive dance our email is podcast@mubi.com And now let's roll credits. This episode was written and hosted by me, Simran Hans. Our editor is Christian Koons. Ciara McEniff is our producer with help from assistant producer Kat Kowalczyk. Our theme music is by Yuri Suzuki. Special thanks to Louis Nash who recorded me. This show is executive produced by Efe Çakarel Rico Gagliano, Michael Tacca and Daniel Kasman. And finally, to watch the best in cinema, subscribe to MUBI at mubi.com Thanks for listening and get some sleep.