Sebastián Silva on ROTTING IN THE SUN — "Everyone and everything in it *will* get trashed"

Sundance favorite Sebastián Silva tells host Rico Gagliano about his self-described "misanthropic comedy" ROTTING IN THE SUN—the satirical story of a happy hedonist and a not-so-happy filmmaker who end up in the middle of a Hitchcockian mystery.

Silva dishes on how he teamed up with superstar Instagrammer Jordan Firstman, the importance of self-mockery, and the film's already-infamous sex sequences featuring "all the d***s."

ROTTING IN THE SUN is showing in select US theaters and releases exclusively on MUBI (almost) globally starting September 15th. 

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Transcript

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Heads up, this episode includes adult language, explicit discussions of sex, mentions of self-harm, and some very big spoilers. I'm not kidding. Huge spoilers. You've been warned. So first, I just want to tell you, I watched this for the first time in a screener with my headphones on while my wife was sleeping next to me, and the plot twist happens a third of the way in, and I shouted so loud that my wife actually woke up. Oh, nice. I like that. And I'm betting some version of that happens in like every screening that you've attended.- Tell me...- Yeah, there is, there is a lot of gasping in that moment. Wait, but is this podcast going to come and ruin everybody's surprise before the movie? Like, I can't believe this is the first question. It's like when ***** It's like this supposed to be a fucking cigarette, man. First of all, we put at the beginning that there might be spoilers. And second of all, I haven't said what happened. I'm just saying that there's a plot twist. Oh, shit. Okay, let's take it back.- You gave it up.- Let's take it back then. I could, I'll just bleep that part out. That is filmmaker Sebastián Silva. And even if you know the secret twist, his movie, <i>Rotting in the Sun</i> is full of surprises. It's the story of a filmmaker named Sebastián Silva, played by Sebastián Silva, who's moping around Mexico City. Successful but depressed. Then at a nude gay beach, he meets a jovial Instagram influencer named Jordan Firstman, played by a jovial Instagram influencer, Jordan Firstman. They're an unlikely team.<i>This fucking drama queen,</i><i>I want to kill myself, suicide bullshit, like,</i><i>honestly, Sebastián, it's like you think you're edgy.</i><i>- You're not edgy.- Why am I even arguing with you?</i><i>Like, look at you.</i><i>- You're literally a clown.- Sebastián...</i><i>You can't hurt me,</i><i>because I'm happy.</i><i>I'm a happy clown.</i> But Sebastián agrees to create a show with the guy. Until the twist happens. And the movie suddenly goes from showbiz sendup to Hitchcock thriller, to a black comic takedown of the privileged. I'm Rico Gagliano, and this is the MUBI Podcast. MUBI's the curated streaming service that champions great cinema. On this show, we tell you the stories behind great cinema. Season five is in the works. Meanwhile, here's a very fun special episode for you. It is my interview with Sebastián Silva.<i>Rotting in the Sun</i> is the latest of his dark, very funny films to cause a buzz at Sundance. It's in U.S. theaters now, and it starts streaming on MUBI in all its satirical, hedonistic glory, Friday, September 15th. You are going to hear us talk about the movie's already infamous nude and un-simulated sex scenes, why self-mockery is essential. And yeah, about how audiences reacted to the plot twist. Which spoiler alert, seriously, I'm going to give away right now because we just couldn't seem to stop talking about it through the whole conversation. So here it is, about a third of the way through the film, out of nowhere, Sebastián's character, who is the hero mind you, gets killed. No, yeah, it's been like a lot of gossiping, you know? And like, people text after 20 minutes that I... I'm dead. They're like, wait, did you die? And I'm like, I'm-I'm wrapped in plastic, man. Like, I'm so dead, yeah. Tell me what that felt like getting that reaction at the first screening when basically nobody could have possibly predicted what they were in for. Yeah, I mean, like, you know, you watch the movie so many times in the editing room and like, you're so used to the twists and turns of your movie that then you forget that people are actually watching this for the first time. So in Sundance, of course, I was like, I was nervous for that moment, for sure. You know, like it turns into a whole different movie in a way, you know. But yeah, people ride that turn pretty smoothly. I mean, they do gasp, but then they don't really have time to like, think, you know, they just have to, like, engage immediately with señora Vero's fucking problem. She has a dead body on the rooftop. Let's step back to the genesis of this movie. My understanding is this movie came about after meeting with Jordan Firstman in Mexico. Tell me about that meeting. Where were you at emotionally? How did you then meet? I do need to fact check that because that's totally fake news. This movie was like, way on the works before I met Jordan, or knew about his existence. I had been working in this movie for a while, and the character that Jordan plays was not necessarily going to be an influencer. I didn't know what kind of gringo was going to be, but it was definitely going to be a despiteful gringo. I thought it could have been like maybe a real estate kind of bro, that goes to Mexico during the pandemic to buy property in Mexico. So it wasn't really defined what this annoying gringo was going to do or be exactly. You know. And then I did meet Jordan in that plaza one day randomly. He was like there with a hook up, that he had had sex, like, I don't know, the night before or something. And I knew this guy, he was in the neighborhood. We both have dogs. So we were just chatting. And then Jordan shows up, and then I learned that he also had watched <i>Crystal Fairy and the Magic Cactus</i> my movie with the hook up the night before. So it was all very kind of serendipitous and coincidental. And then that night he invited me to have dinner with him and some friends. And that night I saw like Jordan in full display, you know, like just talking about himself, showing his Instagram, talking about his sudden fame, and his quas-like semi cancellation, you know, like, whatever, like he was just like sharing... oversharing, like details about his sexual life, you know, just like being like, big and loud, like Jordan is, and and then I went home and, like, it just like he stayed with me, you know, like his sort of like, take on fame and also, like, his paradoxical nature of, like, being so ridiculous, but also so self-aware that I'm like,"Do you know how you come across?" I don't understand this, like. But anyway, yeah, after a couple of weeks, I call him and I'm like,"Hey would you be down to play the a role in my movie?"But it's you and we are going to make fun of you."Not even ironically, like"we are actually going to make fun of you and what you do in your life"and can, and I would like to use your Instagram account."And on top of that, would you have sex, like explicit sex, on camera?" And like he was like, "Yeah!"<i>Anyway, so, like, you're going to need to follow me</i><i>on Instagram, to like, fully understand the scope of the show, but like,</i><i>think of it like</i> Curb Your Enthusiasm, <i>but positive</i>.<i>And like, everyone's the host, which is cool.</i><i>Like, no one's ever done that before.</i><i>It's called</i> You Are Me.<i>I don't know, man.</i><i>It's like, I can't really hear your movie pitch right now,</i><i>so focused, because I almost fucking drowned, and like,</i><i>I'm still shaking and like. Sorry my head hurts.</i><i>I'm sorry, I've like never met someone so obsessed with drowning.</i> You took it with such a great sense of humor, and like, he didn't give a fuck about his image in a way that it was so refreshing, you know, but also very contradictory to what you might have thought after you see his Instagram, you know? Yeah, have you ever talked with him since then about why he felt it was okay for him to say yes? Well, I think like he knew my movies. So that helped, you know, he had he had shown <i>Crystal Fairy</i> to a stranger the night before we met. So I think he held certain admiration for my work. And, I don't know, man. We got along, you know, we're both kind of funny and cynical and, like, it made sense, you know? Why would he say no? Well I mean, because people have egos and, you know, that's one thing to make fun of yourself on Instagram or something, but it's quite another, I mean, this is like a pretty in a lot of ways very incisive and brutal satire of what he does. Yeah, it's pretty brutal. But like, the thing is, like, we're making fun of everyone. You know, I'm making fun of myself, the first. I'm throwing shade at myself and throwing shade at señora Vero, Mateo, Mexico, social media, life in general. You know, the movie is called <i>Rotting in the Sun</i>. It's like it is a misanthropic sort of comedy, you know? So everyone and everything in it will get trashed. Where does that come from?'Cause I've heard you say this before, that it is like you're straight up telling me that it's misanthropic.- Why?- Yeah. Because like, what there is to love about humans? No, I'm kidding. I just, like, I don't know, man. Like... I am, I'm very critical, you know? And I do have a sense of humor. And I think I was inspired in Mexico to, like, be really blunt about my negative sort of feelings about myself. My entitlement, or my privilege and my boredom, you know, like the existential sort of dread that privileged artists go through, you know? And I find that to be very rotting compared to so many other realities. And so I'm like, yeah, let's make fun of myself, you know, like it's so easy to make fun of, like people that think unlike you, you know, it's so easy to I don't know, make fun of Republicans or to make fun of conservatives, you know, like it's, or right wing, like really crazy right wing people it's like, especially for the audience that will go to watch my movies, probably 95% think like me, you know? So it's like, what if I, instead of trashing the obvious, I just trash myself. I think we believe the problem is somewhere else, you know? But we also held huge responsibility about the trouble with being born. You know, it's like we are part of the problem as well. You know, even though we have like liberal thoughts, we, we're not willing to sacrifice our comfort, you know, for the sake of other other people. And like that is a reality for everybody that has more money than other people. And it seems to be human nature, you know. You said that you specifically felt that way in Mexico. What was happening in Mexico to you that put you in that mindset? No, I mean, like to be completely honest, I felt this way my entire life, you know, I've made movies that are, well, not as overtly misanthropic as this one, but yeah, I've made a lot of movies where death is sort of like an option to a miserable life, you know, where it's like, yeah, why, why is death worse than a painful existence, you know? It's not like my full worldview, basically. I remember once one critic said that if I had a little less of a negative worldview, maybe I'll be more successful. And I had like, what, maybe bleed into the mainstream. I believe it's, I'm doing it with humor. You know, I don't... I don't intend to, like, make people feel shitty about themselves or shitty about life, but I do like a good dialogue. I think it's the conundrum of like the privileged life that it's like you kind of are not entitled to suffer, to truly suffer.- I do feel...- Of course you do, but. I do feel like this is kind of in the air, though. There's I mean, people who listen to this podcast are probably getting bored with me mentioning this, but it's true, it's like there was, I talked to Todd Field we we're talking about <i>Tár</i>, that's a movie about a privileged artist who's like behaving badly. The last episode of this show is about <i>Passages</i>, the main characters is a prickly, difficult filmmaker who behaves badly. Maybe a lot of artists are thinking about the nature of what they do- and how much it matters.- I mean, it's possible. I mean, personally, I just wanted to do something that felt vulnerable, you know, for real and put myself in it or a version of myself. Kill that version of myself, or explore it very like thoroughly and see what happens, you know? I wasn't expecting the results that this movie's been having since Sundance, it's like the reception has been so warm and like very enthusiastic. People feel very refreshed and excited about it. Yeah, I don't think I've ever had like such a reaction with my films. It's fun. Despite all the darkness that we've just been talking about. I mean, like just on its surface, it's pretty fun. It's a romp. Yeah, it's a comedy, you know, it's conceived as a comedy. It's like the second comedy I have ever made. Seeing this, it like doesn't, I read somewhere, you can tell me if this is true or not, that at some point you were actually in Hollywood pitching Steven Spielberg? Oh my God. That's a really long story. It's like a whole nother podcast, I think, which actually I wrote a screenplay of, it's called<i>May I Talk to Steven Spielberg?</i> And that's a comedy as well. But it is true, when I was 19 years old, I came to L.A. looking for Steven Spielberg to pitch him a project that in my mind would save humanity from itself. And that's all I'm going to say. Of course, I failed, but I found his mother, and stalked her a little.- I know.- Would he remember this? Does he have any idea that this was happening? Well, I... I would say that maybe she brought it up to him because she was very surprised the night she met me. So we honestly, we have to wait until the screenplay is made into a film, before I get to follow up on this question? Yeah, or we could do another podcast that is called<i>May I Talk to Steven Spielberg?</i> But it's really long. I mean, the origin of it, like everything that happened in L.A., what the fuck was I thinking. Dude, I will make that podcast now. But it is true. There is this great Hitchcockian mystery thriller plot that kind of shows up. When in the process did that kind of pop into your head? That this was going to make that turn? The movie was conceived as a crime mystery from the very beginning, and I was very lucky that Pedro Peirano, who's a lifetime collaborator and co-writer of many of my movies, including the <i>Maid</i>, we co-directed- a movie called <i>Old Cats</i>.- Yep. And he's always been there around, and he is a total film buff, cinephile, super savvy storyteller, script doctor, who loves Hitchcock, you know? So it's like, it is not coincidental that this has some kind of Hitchcockian flavor to it because Pedro was behind it. And like I remember writing the script in the beginning, I was like, okay, I die. And maybe señora Vero and her husband Lalo take my body to the canals of Xochimilco and throw me in the water. And then Pedro was like, "No, man like the body needs to stay in the building." If that hadn't been that way, it would be such a fucking different movie, you know? It's like just because the bodies in the building and everything is happens in that building, it just so much better that way. So it's like <i>Rope</i>, you know? Like where the body's like, they're sitting on the bodies. So that was Pedro's sort of narrative skills in, when it comes to crime, he's obsessed with Agatha Christie and Poirot and like, Columbo, you know, like he's like, really a crime mystery master. I love having directors sort of break down a scene in their films. And usually there's one, I'll usually, I'll suggest it. There's one that leaps out as kind of crucial or an especially interestingly handled scene. But there are so many of those in this movie. Do you have a favorite? Is there a scene in this that you like really would love to, people to pay more attention to? Not at the top of my head, to be completely honest. Like I would like, it's like when people are like,"Who are your favorite filmmakers?" And you're like, you know, like, I need four days for that answer. But yeah, tell me what which one you like. Well, I mean, we kind of have to talk about the one scene, you know, the one I'm going to talk about, the one full of penises. Oh, right, right, right. Yeah. Which, by the way, it's only a couple of, I should say this it's only a couple of sequences in the film that are full of penises. From the way folks have talked about this movie I thought was going to be non-stop male genitalia. Yeah. I mean, like, dude, it's like a nude beach. Like, why do people expect, like, the whole, that whole scene is like a gay nude beach. There's going to be dicks around. It's not that he's going to a hospital and there's, like, people walking around, like, swinging their dicks around. It's like, it makes total sense. There are dicks there because they're at a gay nude beach. A crowded gay nude beach. That's where dicks are at.- So it's like...- That's where all the dicks are. Yeah, that's where all the exposed dicks are, you know? So, yeah, I mean, like, yeah, let's talk about the penises. I thought it was funny. I thought it was just brought comedy to the story, you know? I think it sort of places Jordan in a very specific sort of atmosphere, and environment of like, like an hedonist, you know, he's just having the best time. He just wants to fuck, he wants to do drugs, he wants to do TV shows, enjoy his fame. Like he just wants to live life to the fullest, you know, like he's giving a little YOLO. And I think that the dicks are part of that. And I... I don't know, I find it dicks funny. I thought, I thought about it, you know, because I know that exposed hard dicks or like gay explicit sex, you know, it's going to like, be a problem for distributors. And speaking of <i>Passages</i>, which got the NC-17 for a gay sex scene. Yeah, but it's like, unlike <i>Passages</i>, my movie has no pretension to create any erotic moment- at all.- Yeah. Sure. So I don't, I do not enjoy sex scenes in general, in movies. It's not my thing. I have never put a sex scene in a movie before. I've made so many. And I think a lot of directors that I really like and admire have never had a sex scene in a movie. It's a weird thing to do if you think about it, because what are you getting with a sex scene that is earnest and sexy? It's like, are you getting the audience turned on? Or you want to see how the characters are bonding as they sort of like softcore fuck each other between sheets? It makes no sense to me. It's like people just like, think that when two characters connect it's really good to see them making love. And it's like, who gives a fuck, man? Like, we can skip their lovemaking and like, just continue telling me the story. Unless you find a tattoo on somebody's balls, you know, that it's really key to the story. So the dicks and the sex in the movie are there as a funny sort of element. They're not there to create eroticism at all. Like, really like, you know. It's a way to establish character. It's your, it's show, don't tell. Like, this is who this guy is. Yeah, it's that, it's like for Jordan but it's also it's like it's a, it's setting up a tone. Tell me about casting that scene. Yeah, we were, we put an ad that is like we're looking for mangly weird dicks. So... please, send pictures of your weird dick. No, we got whatever we could. It's like, I had a friend that had lived in that beach town for a while, and he helped me cast everybody for that scene, and that sequence, you know? And most of the people that are having sex on camera or are seen naked are people that are very sex positive. None of them are porn actors. They're friends of friends. They had had sex before they had sex in the movie. They had cruised in that beach before. You know, it's people that are like kind of like past the giggly aspect of sex.- They're past that.- Which is exactly what you said, that's that's the thing that's also funny about it is that nobody seems to like acknowledge, this is a very unusual situation for your character, and nobody else except them is acknowledging it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Let me go back to something. You said something, and I've heard you say this in other situations. It's kind of like, you know, making fun of far right extremists. You said that takes care of itself. That it's almost too easy.- Yeah.- And you wanted to explore how liberals contribute to problems like inequality, too. But is there a worry that saying liberals are also complicit in this stuff? Obviously, it's true. But I can imagine the political argument of, yeah, but now is not the time to acknowledge that. Like it almost helps the extremists seem like just another side of the same coin. Yeah, but it's like I feel that introspection, it's always helpful. I don't think they're mutually exclusive. You know, I don't think that by... being critical of ourselves, we stop being critical of somebody else. I think that by being critical stories yourself, you're criticism other, over others are going to be more pointed and more, and more informed, you know, because you already saw what your flaws are. And fix those before you go try to fix anyone else. Are they fixable? Yeah, I think it's definitely an ongoing endeavor that will never end. I don't think that you'll be like 61 and you're like, "Oh, wait! This is how it feels to be completely resolved." I don't think that's ever going to happen, and I don't think we will ever find full satisfaction. And I think that's the trick to sort of live with uncertainty and with imperfections. But I think that... most importantly is that your imperfections are not affecting anyone else.- Hmm.- That's key. You know, because then people have to defend themselves. You shouldn't do anything that makes other people have to defend themselves. That's my prerogative. Sebastián Silva.<i>Rotting in the Sun</i> is in U.S. theaters now, and it hits MUBI on September 15th. We didn't even get into the issues of class and immigration that this movie grapples with. It is the whole package. Check it out. And speaking of class, coming soon to this podcast will be my interview with UK filmmaker Ken Loach. Who has been telling the stories of working people for decades. He's a total legend. Follow us so you don't miss it. Meanwhile, this episode of the MUBI Podcast was hosted, written and edited by me Rico Gagliano. Ciara McEniff produced it. Stephen Colon recorded and mastered. Yuri Suzuki composed our theme music, The show is executive produced by me, along with Jon Barrenechea Efe Çakarel, Daniel Kasman and Michael Tacca. If you dig the show, leave a five star review on your app of choice, won't you? And of course, to watch the best in cinema, subscribe to MUBI at MUBI.com Thanks for listening, now go watch the movies.