Belgian rapper-turned-auteur Baloji was born in the Democratic Republic of Congo — where for some, his name literally means “demon.” So it’s no surprise that his mind-bending first feature OMEN is all about characters society considers cursed. Baloji tells host Rico Gagliano about this kaleidoscopic debut, the pressures of competition at Cannes, and the scene in PULP FICTION that broke his brain.
Every May, the population of sleepy Cannes, France triples — as film pros and cinephiles from around the globe convene for the two-week movie-thon called the Cannes Film Festival.
For the fourth season of the MUBI Podcast, we sent host Rico Gagliano into the eye of this celluloid storm, accompanied by an intrepid camera crew, to grab interviews with a cross-section of filmmakers who made Cannes 2023 one of the most celebrated in years. Guests include legendary director Wim Wenders, perennial Cannes favorites Kleber Mendonca Filho and Monia Chokri, and a slew of new filmmakers destined to be world cinema's next wave — from Belgian hip-hopper-turned-auteur Baloji to New York's wry boundary-smasher Joanna Arnow. Episodes air twice weekly.
Episodes air twice weekly. Follow and watch on Spotify or YouTube...or listen wherever you get your podcasts.
To stream some of the films we've covered on the podcast, check out the collection Featured on the MUBI Podcast. Availability of films varies depending on your country.
MUBI is a global streaming service, production company and film distributor dedicated to elevating great cinema. MUBI makes, acquires, curates, and champions extraordinary films, connecting them to audiences all over the world. A place to discover ambitious new films and singular voices, from iconic directors to emerging auteurs. Each carefully chosen by MUBI’s curators.
Belgian rapper-turned-auteur Baloji was born in the Democratic Republic of Congo — where for some, his name literally means “demon.” So it’s no surprise that his mind-bending first feature OMEN is all about characters society considers cursed. Baloji tells host Rico Gagliano about this kaleidoscopic debut, the pressures of competition at Cannes, and the scene in PULP FICTION that broke his brain.
Every May, the population of sleepy Cannes, France triples — as film pros and cinephiles from around the globe convene for the two-week movie-thon called the Cannes Film Festival.
For the fourth season of the MUBI Podcast, we sent host Rico Gagliano into the eye of this celluloid storm, accompanied by an intrepid camera crew, to grab interviews with a cross-section of filmmakers who made Cannes 2023 one of the most celebrated in years. Guests include legendary director Wim Wenders, perennial Cannes favorites Kleber Mendonca Filho and Monia Chokri, and a slew of new filmmakers destined to be world cinema's next wave — from Belgian hip-hopper-turned-auteur Baloji to New York's wry boundary-smasher Joanna Arnow. Episodes air twice weekly.
Episodes air twice weekly. Follow and watch on Spotify or YouTube...or listen wherever you get your podcasts.
To stream some of the films we've covered on the podcast, check out the collection Featured on the MUBI Podcast. Availability of films varies depending on your country.
MUBI is a global streaming service, production company and film distributor dedicated to elevating great cinema. MUBI makes, acquires, curates, and champions extraordinary films, connecting them to audiences all over the world. A place to discover ambitious new films and singular voices, from iconic directors to emerging auteurs. Each carefully chosen by MUBI’s curators.
Heads up, audio listeners, you're about to hear a videotaped conversation. For the full experience you'll find a video version of this episode on Spotify or YouTube. All right, so we were just talking about the fact that you just realized, or remembered that you're actually in a competition here at Cannes. You're in the <i>Un Certain Regard</i> competition. Yes, so I just met this guy who was working for the jury, for the <i>Caméra d'Or</i>, best first film. And then he remind me that is a real competition. So I'm like, "Oh, fuck." So I just told him, like, you know, actually my two favorite film from last year, which is <i>Aftersun</i>...- Oh yeah?- And it won, anything? And there is this, <i>As bestas</i> a Spanish movie, which I really loved, didn't get anything. So I was like, what does that mean? Well, maybe you shouldn't win. Yeah. I don't know, it's always... That is writer/director Baloji. And you just witnessed a rare moment of him at a loss for words. Born in the Republic of the Congo, he moved to Belgium as a kid where he became a rap star. And just like his music, his movies have a lot to say. Case in point, the film he premiered at Cannes called <i>Omen</i>, which starts out as the story of a Belgian named Koffie. He travels back to Africa to get his family's blessing on his marriage. But soon, the movie turns into something wilder and deeper. A feverish vision of a society that sees demons everywhere. And of outsiders banding together to change that. I'm Rico Gagliano. This is the MUBI Podcast. Welcome back to our special season of conversations from the 2023 Cannes Film Festival. This is episode six. Baloji talking about <i>Omen</i>. And about his filmmaking hero who was also screening a film at Cannes. I'm personally a big fan of Steve McQueen.- Yeah, my God.- For multiple reasons. Also, the fact that he's coming from a different art form than cinema. Just like you. And I know that cinema has, like, this box, this culture, that if you're filmmaker, this is what you do. And you cannot express yourself in different art form, so that mean that... If somebody is multidisciplinary, it means it doesn't have discipline. Really? Do you really think that is? Because to me it's spectacular, the fact that you can excel in multiple artistic avenues, is like pretty remarkable. You don't think so? I'm glad to hear this, but... But the reality you just remind me that, that is not the case. That the fact that I didn't, I'm not trained, I didn't went to film school. It's an issue. And most people just say"You're a rapper, stick to rap." Because I present already three films, two film commissioned from 2012... And in 2018, I get sick of it. Because I went to some sch... some script training, and they all try to make me, to mold my movie in the... In the way to make sure that it get accepted by the film commissions, instead of telling your real story or the story that you really... That is inside you that you're dying to do to talk about. There's a style that you think the film commission is looking for? Yeah, because they want that we look at the film in a very Western perspective, European perspective, and it's an issue. So that's why in <i>Augure</i>, <i>Omen</i>, I really try to play with this, so to give the feeling that the movies about Koffie going back home is like the typical back to my country story. But it's basically a McGuffin like it's this, it's this Hitchcock trick. Like, actually koffie, he's not the victim because he can leave. He's in Congo for a few days and then he go back. The real victim is the mom that has to stay there and she has no other options. It is interesting, too,'cause reading the description of the piece, it's like I was prepared for what it becomes, which is this kind of phantasmagorical trip through Africa. But it does, it starts off I'm like, I seriously was like,"Is this the right film?" Like, did they send me the right screener? It was... And I was kind of like, "Oh, yeah, there's a story here that's cool." And then it's like, it eases you into this, like, beautiful madness kind of thing. And this was by design, you're saying? Yes, I tried, but at the same time, I'm a big football fan, and in every World Cup, I notice that, you know, if you watch England, everybody's a coach. So if you watch a movie, everybody's a director. So everybody say, even my daughter, 14 years old, she watch a movie say "Ah, now he's going to do this." And because we trained to think like this, because that's the way we consume so much content every day. So that's why when I mentioned a movie like <i>Aftersun</i>, I think it's refreshing, because you don't get it, the way that it's supposed to be. I think we need this. We need to dive into an experience without having our rational mind that tells us how to tell a narrative. I'm a big fan of Italian cinema and the Antonioni, Fellini puzzlingly films, and this is really this candor and decadence. Yeah, it's just you have the big frame and the very small one. Like the big story and the small one at the same time. I just love when when the narrative is just as complex as we are as human being. We're not... we're not one dimensional. We're just full of layers. This is human being. Let me ask you, since you had mentioned this earlier, going from rap to film.- Yeah.- It's, I mean, what was the... Can... Is there a connection to you between the two of them? It's the narrative.- Telling a story- That's right. For example, for this project, I did something that really changed me as a, as a person because it learn me empathy, because I made like an album from the point of view of my characters. And I know that in school, film school, they always talk about the point of view and the back story. And I literally did this in music, so, and it took me a long time to, for example, do an album for Tshala, the sister of Koffie, was... was a 35 year old woman who doesn't want to have kids, was dating male and female and has this freedom. And how me as a cis-gen man can be on her point of view. So it took me a moments to getting to this, and it really helped me to communicate with the cast, communicate with the team based with the music as a tool for us to understand better the situation just like a storyboards. Just think all these element that we put together. You just reminded me that we, I've done a terrible disservice to the people, most of whom will not have seen this movie by the time this comes out, very shortly.- Even when we tape it.- I hope they will. But let's get a quick rundown. Very briefly. You've kind of gotten the idea across. It's, you know, a coming home movie. But give us the details. What's the film about, so to speak? So the movie, it's a four different point of view films about characters consider as sorcerers and witches, in the African landscape and how they help each other, to fight against this patriarchal structure, this misogynist structure. What was the original impetus for telling, for those themes? I guess. Oh, there is a lots of reasons, but the main one is that my name is Baloji, which technically means man of science, but with Christianity in Africa it means man of bad science, or black magic. And in the last 50 years it becomes sorcerer. And it's like I say, often, it's like calling yourself devil or demon. So people are just like, "Whoa." Seriously? Did you do that consciously? Even some... Part of the team, they were like,"I'm not going to say your name out loud. I'm scared. I..." Or you go to the radio, they don't dare to say my name. Like, for example, I just received a message from the Belgian the Congolese government people, that's coming to Cannes and they don't dare to say my name. So they like "Mr. Tshiani" So they're like, "No, that's not my name. My name is Baloji."You can say it. You don't curse yourself saying it." So this is something that I have in me to be considered as connected to bad force and which is not the case. And it's interesting to navigate how our societies build on this.- You made a movie called <i>Zombies</i>.- Yes. A short, music filled. It's beautiful. Right now, like, in this moment, I'm trying to find what the connection is between the two because I feel like there might be. I know visually, I feel like there's a connection.- There is.- But I mean, what do you think thematically? Because for those who don't know, it's about... "About" it's kind of more of a short and more kind of impressionistic. But it's kind of about people who are like stuck in the social media world in a way that are walking around like zombies. But I mean, the idea of zombies, this movie is about witches. There's something like the idea of curses, and like evil. What... Is there a connection? Did you think about there being one? No, but I see your comment, I think it's interesting. I didn't win that war. But it's... Let's do it now.- Yeah, let's do this.- Let's figure it out. Therapy.- So...- I do kind of feel like this is weird. So are you obsessed with horror film?- No, not at all, actually.- Is that true? It's a genre that I don't really like. And yet you're like, you're dealing with... I think for me a horror film that I like is... Ari Aster. Oh, yeah. Oh, right. That's for me, something that I'm like, "Wow, this is spectacular." It's psychological, okay. Yeah, that's where it stops. Really quickly I wanted to ask you because we just completed a season about music and movies, okay?- Okay.- Specifically needle drops and movies.- Okay.- And kind of, like really going deep on some of them.- And I...- Needle movie, that's really, okay. Yeah, but the, you being a musician, it just suddenly occurs to me that I should ask you, like, what is like the, off the top of your head, like the greatest needle drop in movies. Or like, at least the one that comes to mind, One that excited you? What you mean by needle drop? Like a movie, the song that already existed and the director dropped it into their film, and it like, kind of recontextualized it like, you know... What would be an example, you know, Tears for Fears in the movie <i>Donnie Darko</i>. Not a good one?- That's a really good one.- Okay. That came to mind because we did an episode about it. Ok. Wow, that's an incredible one. Wow. Yeah, that's a tough one. Yeah. We'll just sit here for a couple of hours while you mull it over. There is a movie that we watch with my editor. It's a Tarantino movie. And it was the... It's <i>Pulp Fiction</i>, fuck! So we watch <i>Pulp Fiction</i> because we watch a lot of his film because narratively it changes point of view, or sometimes with genre. What's the name?<i>Foxy Brown</i> it... it tells the same story from different etc.. So we watch a lot of his movies- just because we were in that process and,- <i>Jackie Brown</i>.<i>Jackie Brown.</i> Yeah, <i>Foxy Brown,</i> that's another one. That's a rapper. Um, sorry. And I this scene... when Thurman is dancing with Travolta. Oh Uma Thurman's dancing with him, what is it, is that... Is that <i>Don't You Know, You Never Can Tell</i>, is that what...♪ C'est la vie say the old folks, Don't you know you never can tell ♪Oh, you sang it. This scene to me, is incredible because I think if you do this in '23, you make it super short, like 25 second, and dude, don't care. It just let you play the whole song. Even the moment that is a little bit weak That they don't really know how to dance and they're doing some weird things, and just to see it now. Yeah, I was like, oh shit, I didn't remember that scene like this because of course you get the move, when you do all these things and that's, that's the thing that stand out. But the scene is really like, whoa... Yeah. And to pick that song, there's a million songs that you could drop there. It's a dance competition scene.- They could play anything.- They could play anything. Somehow that song works. Why does that song work? And it creates something special into this film. And I love that. Sometimes I think like, one day I would love to do a musical. Yeah? Well, yeah. I'm surprised you didn't start with the musical because you're... Yeah, but just because the industry will be like, oh, of course the musician's doing them... But I think when, when it's... done like Lars Von Trier, and... it, it goes somewhere else.- <i>- Dancer in the Dark.</i> Yeah.- Yeah, it's magical. What is your next project I guess would be my next thing. Because you can do, it could be a rap album. It could be... So I'm doing the albums, I'm doing like exhibition projects with all the the costumes of the film and the photographs we did. And then I'm working on a short film called<i>Black Dahlia.</i> It's about, again, feminism, about... a group of woman living into their own society. And I'm most of my focus is on my second feature film. Why the focus on female characters? I wonder. Because the same way I think racism is a white problem, white people problem. I think feminism is a man issue. Because it doesn't help us neither. We have to understand that there is something wrong with the way our society is structured as a male oriented structure. So it's important that we we change it as men. I think it has to come from us. Writer/director Baloji. Quick fact check, turns out the film he mentioned earlier <i>Aftersun</i> actually did win a prize when it played Cannes. Which is okay because shortly after this interview, so did <i>Omen.</i> It earned Baloji the New Voice Award. Look for his movie later this year. Meanwhile, this episode of the MUBI Podcast was written and hosted by me, Rico Gagliano. Ciara McEniff produced along with Elodie Fagan and Josefina Perez-Portillo. Prachi Mokashi edited the show, and Michelle Cho is our supervising editor. Yuri Suzuki composed our theme music. Our camera crew in Cannes included Cédric Hazard, Alice Desplats, Rob Godfrey, Solal Coulon and Mathis Toti. Special thanks to MUBI's addition team in Cannes, Eric Issenberg, Sam Leter, Ilyass Malki. This series is executive produced by me, along with Jon Barrenechea, Efe Çakarel, Daniel Kasman and Michael Tacca. And of course, to stream the best in cinema head over to MUBI.com to start watching. Next episode, the hilarious and provocative Joanna Arnow. And by the way if Baloji looks like he's towering over me in this video, that's because he was. When he walked into the studio, his first words were, "Hi, it's great to meet you. And yeah, I know I'm really tall."